Topic: PlayStation 5 --OT--

@kyleforrester87 I have many games on Xbox too, in fact even more than for ps4 but I'm leaning towards ps5. I just think that BC is essential in today's digital reality. Sony would screw themselves hard if they don't include BC, because then, just as you said, you can buy whatever you want as you're starting from a blank point with no games attached. I don't know why I even argue on this when BC is one of the reasons why they delayed ps5 to 2020 in the first place and it will be a reality.

What's a used PS4 worth these days? They're selling new ones with a game for €199. So it can't be more than €100, and don't think that price will be any higher one or two years from now. It's not more than the price of two new games, so I don't think it'll make a huge difference.

Err... source? Your uncle at Nintendo doesn't count!

Ryzen (confirmed) + probably NAVI (Forbes' sources claiming that AMD is building the Navi chip exclusively for Sony)
15GB RRAM or NRAM (rumors suggest the PS5 will use 3D stacked RAM)
2TB and high-end cloud storage
Vapor chamber cooler
You need at least 8 teraflops to reach true 4K with a decent frame rate and frame pacing, meaning that Sony may be aiming for that value

That's my guesses basing on what I've seen recently.

@NecuVise So you buy an next gen console to play last gen games on??

That's just stupid. The reason people buy the new consoles is to play new games. I bought a PS4 to play PS4 games I didn't say hmmmm I wanta PS4 to play PS3 games on. Don't get me wrong it would be a nice feature but is not necessary and shouldn't be the main reason to by a new gen console. That would be like me saying well I bought this nice HDTV but I want to be able to watch my shows in SD and if I can't I am not going to upgrade.

If you want to play PS4 games just keep the PS4 instead of trading it in for a PS5. I mean if you aren't going to play PS4 then yeah trade it in. Its why I never trade consoles in, if I get the urge to play a Dreamcast game I got my DC. I want to play a PS3 game I got my PS3. As mainly people claim BC is not a necessity when it comes to a new console.

@Octane at this point, insiders are our only source, don't know what you expect, official Sony confirmation?

@Vegetto that would be too custom and too underpowered so I highly doubt those specs. They go for standard RAM, maybe sshd and around 12 tflops of power. They aren't going to release 8tf next gen console if one X is already at 6 tf.

@Tasuki different strokes for different folks. You can keep whatever you want, good for you, I prefer BC. If playing games from previous gen was so stupid as you say it we wouldn't have so many remaster, ps now back catalogue of PS3 games, ps2 games on psn etc. And I have never said BC is the main reason to buy a new console.

@Kidfried what else could they put in consoles? That's the current gen of amd procesors, so there are no reasonable choices except for Ryzen.

@NecuVise That's what "confirmed" means. Those are just rumours.

@NecuVise actually, 7 teraflops would make a huge difference, even when compared to 6 teraflops, the PRO/X limiter is the CPU. We need more CPU power, 8.5 teraflops would be more than enough when combined with a good CPU, and that's where Ryzen shines since AMD created the best architecture, which luckily is not so expensive to produce or adapt. Microsoft didn't make money selling the X for $500, so you need a good balance between final price x profit. I wouldn't bet on SSHD since we'd be getting low storage again in exchange for speed, unlike SSD, SSHD technology showed no reasonable drop in prices/production. Xbox One X uses the vapor chamber cooling, so we should expect the same since air cooling is less efficient.

@Kidfried a principal programmer at Sony who works with the Advanced Technology Group is working with AMD's Ryzen technology. The programmer has been making additions tot he LLVM github over the last several weeks related to the "znver1" architecture, which is the code name for AMD's first generation Ryzen processors. LinkedIn also shows that the same person is involved in compiler development for PlayStation hardware.

@NecuVise 100% agreed. If people don't like old games it's fine, but but being against it... What a proud gentleman. I can't even play BO2, BF3, MW2, MW3 on the PS3/PC without finding hackers every 2 minutes.

@Vegetto I just think those specs are too close to one X to be a new gen, it rather looks like ps4 pro 2 I'm hoping for something more powerful, even though it's not such a big priority, as I'm satisfied with graphics as they are now, and I hope for big advances in AI and physics which these procesors could give us.

Regarding BC, sometimes it feels people want to have LESS features and options on their consoles, not more. No wonder iPhone is so popular

@Octane and where did I wrote that it's confirmed? You want something to be confirmed when even the very existence of playstation 5 is not confirmed.

@NecuVise

We don't know any of this. They're rumours at most, but nothing is set in stone as of now. To be fair, we actually don't know anything at all regarding the PS5. The only reasonable assumption is that it's coming at some point in the future.

That's a good enough reason for Sony NOT to offer BC. Sony can charge subscriptions for PSNow, to re-buy old games on PSN and charge up to full price for a 'port' with a change to its output resolution and maybe a visual setting or two and call it a remaster.

If you think a game like God of War or Uncharted 4 via BC will suddenly be native 4k and 60fps, you are mistaken because those games have fixed settings which will remain 'fixed'. At most, you may get some benefits like faster loading.

BC is going to be more of an issue for the PS5 because of the Pro. There are 3 different configurations (Pro, boost mode and standard PS4) - at least 2 that Sony would have to emulate/build-in. Sony I guess could just emulate the standard PS4 because ALL games work on a PS4 (although emulation isn't perfect) but the Pro has to revert to a PS4 to run the non-pro enhanced games - boost mode doesn't work with every game either. If they do go the PS4 (not Pro route), then a lot of games will be 'worse' on a PS5 - if they go just the Pro spec route, only the Pro enhanced games could work.

Sony know that people will buy a PS5 regardless of BC because they will want to play their 'new' exclusives and the new games at the best possible quality on console - especially if they offer 60fps as a minimum. The PS4 itself is not able to offer a locked 30fps in a LOT of games - even with Dynamic resolutions that drop down below 1080p. In other words, you aren't getting games that 'are' 1080/30, but more like 1000/28 if you take their average resolution/frame rate. People will want to upgrade to play the new releases at 60fps (even if they don't have 4k TV's yet) rather than a game that's 800-1080p, 20-30fps with screen tear and/or frame pacing issues...

The PS4 does not offer BC yet continues to sell more consoles every month than consoles that do. It is Sony's fastest selling console - maybe not their biggest selling but this is still only 5yrs old and no doubt will still be selling for years after the PS5 releases too. Point is, Sony doesn't 'need' to have BC, especially if they put all their money into making the PS5 for next gen only and not add BC costs that either add to the overall price or take away from the overall specs to hit a certain price point. Everyone with a PS4 library has a PS4 to play those games on.

Sony can continue to make money with remasters, PSN sales and PSNow subscriptions too if they don't add BC so its in their interest not too. They know that people will want to play their Exclusives - especially if they continue to make Game of the Year contenders - and so will sell consoles regardless. If you are willing to forego Sony's new exclusives just because the PS5 isn't BC, then obviously you couldn't care less about playing those games...

@BAMozzy You are kind of right but I do think you are omitting the size of digital libraries that people have invested in. Each generation, all bets are off really, loyalty only gets you so far. You can be riding the crest of the wave but fluff it up and you end up paying the price.

As a consumer, having had so many remasters for the PS4 am not buying Uncharted, The Last of Us etc. again. I also don't want to lose my massive library of digital games, which, like it or not, has really boomed this generation.

If I, as the consumer, have a choice ahead of me - Xbox or PS but PS will let me keep my digital library from the last gen and play them, naturally my first choice might be PS. Especially since launches always take some time for a great library of games to appear. I'm already invested in the eco system. If I still need to keep my PS4 to play that library and Xbox offers a compelling package the decisions removes one key loyalty element and I might jump ship. Or I might by an XB first then invest in a PS5 down the line.

People won't buy a console for BC en masse but it adds to the pros of a console.

@Rudy_Manchego Physical games carrying over is easier than digital I think. If you're offering the games digitally as well, Sony needs to sort out licensing and rights for all those games all over again. If the PS5 happens to run PS4 discs, they don't have to, those games have already been sold.

@Octane Only if offered for sale again - not necessarily if they fall within your existing library. You can re-download your steam library if you get a new PC can't you?

@Rudy_Manchego Whether you buy digital or physical, you still have access to ALL your games by keeping your PS4 - regardless of what happens with BC. Sony know that 'remasters' are lucrative as both ND remasters (Last of Us and Nathan Drake Collection) are amongst the 'best' selling exclusives on PS4. Unless Spider-Man or God of War have overtaken them now, Last of Us sits as the 2nd best selling exclusive (behind Uncharted 4) and Nathan Drake was 3rd - to reiterate unless GoW or SM has overtaken them now. Either way, they sit amongst the best selling exclusives this generation.

Sony could easily sell remasters of Last of Us 2 at Native 4k and 60fps. That is no different from the Last of Us which went from 720 to 1080p, 30 to 60fps - obviously a bigger jump from PS4 but from Pro, that would be a similar jump up. BC could scupper their sales dramatically - all for maybe a few 'earlier' console sales because of BC which doesn't make that much profit per unit.

Whether you have an extensive digital library or not, to guarantee they are 'playable', you still need to ensure they are downloaded as they could be removed at anytime due to licensing issues. You should still have a PS4 to play them on too. You aren't 'losing' access just because the PS5 doesn't have BC (if it doesn't) and can still play them all on your PS4 regardless. There is no guarantee that any/all games will be licensed to run on a PS5 - Sony 1st party exclusives games maybe but not every game. Activision could decide that Destiny and CoD won't be BC on PS5 if they want because they want you to buy the 'newer' version, the PS5 specific versions. EA could do the same with its Fifa franchise and Battlefront/field games too. If these all run, look better and offer some additional benefits (like BF4 did with its 32vs32), it may not work properly in MP or even be compatible - Destiny at 30fps on PS4, maybe 60+fps on PS5. Then you also have potential problems with Save data too - PS4 saves affecting PS5 version saves of games with the same titles. Its not just the games that have launched, but the games that will launch on both generations. Unless devs are willing to 'optimise' for 3 different hardware specs and just release the game as 'Playstation' without the 4 or 5 so its more like an iterative upgrade but games that can't run on PS4 have PS5 on the box, then things get complicated.

Thing is, PS5 doesn't have to be limited to 30 or 60fps either and can offer upto 4k/120fps or even 8k/60fps with HDMI 2.1 and VRR also means it can target 40fps or 50fps if they wanted too and the game will run well because the both the TV and game are in sync. It could give massive advantages to players over PS4/Pro and people won't want to buy MP games if they are in the same lobbies or play BC versions if they are locked to 30fps like Destiny is. Battlefield may have a 30-40% advantage on Pro (let alone the visual advantage on long distance enemies) but playing a game at 40-45fps on PS4 vs someone potentially playing at 4k/100fps with VRR enabled and the advantage that has on input lag too is really not going to be fun.

Whilst that doesn't matter for Sony's Exclusives as they are predominantly Single player experiences, you still have the issues with BC Specs. If they just emulate or build in a PS4 Pro spec, then only games that are pro enhanced will work and if they just build in or emulate a PS4 spec, you just get the PS4 visuals and performance - meaning games like H:ZD, GoW, etc look 'worse' and games like RDR2 perform worse too. Emulating a PS4 Pro, including the switch to PS4 specs for non-enhanced games is much more complicated. Building in a PS4 Pro is expensive - money they could spend on the GPU, CPU and/or RAM - may also add to the cooling costs too as they would need to cool the Pro APU as well so you may need a cooling block and a fan for that as well. Not only that, it also makes the console bigger and heavier so requires more material and incurs more shipping/distribution costs. Bigger boxes mean fewer consoles per crate so more crates needed. Software solutions, like emulation, are not guaranteed to run 'every' game as well as they do on hardware let alone the complications involved if they try to emulate a Pro with the switching to PS4 or non-enhanced games. Boost mode itself doesn't work with 'every' non-pro enhanced game either so if they do go the emulation route - like Xbox, then chances are your entire PS4 library won't all be playable at launch either. Sony would also need a special team in place to check every game and its 'digital' content - not just DLC packs but all the MTX's etc, obtain permissions from devs/publishers etc before they can pass them as 'safe' to run on the PS5 without affecting the PS5 software, hardware and peoples saves - like MS have to do.

Buying Digital, regardless of BC is always a risk for long term gaming. If you don't have it downloaded and up to date, at any time the publishers can pull it from PSN/MS store and you will lose it. If the games meant that much for long term play, then you should have bought them physically and keep the console they were designed to run on - just like you have to do with PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, Nintendo consoles etc etc. You opted to buy Digital for convenience in the short term but that doesn't mean Sony have to add BC. You bought those games for PS4 - a console with a 'limited' life span as technology moves on - and those games work on PS4. If you want to keep them beyond PS4, download them and if you need more storage, buy external HDD's to keep them on. Sony are NOT obliged to offer BC just because more people are buying Digital. They bought these for the PS4 and so that's all they need to 'work' on - just like Physical too. It doesn't say PS4, PS5, PS6 etc on the box - it says PS4.

If Sony do offer any form of BC, partial or full, PS4 or Pro, then look at is a bonus feature but if not, you still have your PS4 to play your entire PS4 library!

@Rudy_Manchego Steam is different as its a 'single' platform. The games are built for a wide range of specs too. You can still download your PS4 games to a PS4 if you buy a new PS4. Steam though could remove games from its library - either for licensing issues, the publisher decides to pull them or whatever reason and lose access to that game. There is a difference too in the fact that PC is much broader than PS4. By that, I mean it doesn't say intel GTX1080 on the box, just PC which means its licensed for any PC but Games are licensed specifically for the PS4 - not PS5. If you buy a new PC, its still a PC even if it has vastly superior specs - its still a PC. The Pro is a PS4, the PS4 slim is PS4 and if Sony release a super-slim PS4 or Pro, if you buy, you can sign into your account and re-download your library.

@BAMozzy Yeah but I don't feel that you have answered my question which is, day one, brand loyalty I, and many other consumers, are going to be more likely to get a PS5 if our digital library goes with us.

Sure, it is risky buying digital, sure, Sony could risk the same strategy of issuing re-remasters of their old remasters and yes there would be technical debt to pay off to do this. We are, however, comparing last gen to current and that aint how tech works.

It's the same with any digital eco system. Loyalty to a brand or eco system is very often based on how easy and handy it is to keep the gains they have made. Put it this way - I'm say, a loyal Apple customer. I have boughts films and music on iTunes for years now. Then the iPhone XZYA releases and they say, this version now won't support your library for reasons. Not unreasonable, all my risk etc. Now if that wasn't the case, the decision to get an iPhone XZYA is more of a foregone conclusion - if I went Android, I'd lose my library. Now I'll lose it anyway, I'm more likely to consider a competitor.

We know that tech specs, internal systems, how you get these games matters very little to the average consumer that a new device has to target. If the competition offers it, and by all accounts, that appears to be MS's strategy it is a disadvantage to Sony.

@Rudy_Manchego Brand loyalty comes from continuing to provide the service, the games and the quality you expect from Sony. If you want to play the games that Sony continues to make, whether its sequels to games like Spider-Man, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Bloodborne etc entirely new IPs or the range of Japanese games that only Sony offer, then you will buy a PS5 regardless of whether your OLD games can be played or not - its not as if you can't play them on a PS4 anyway!!! Its totally irrelevant because the majority of people will buy a PS5 because of the NEW games it offers and the quality of those compared to its competitor. People will buy a PS5 because their friends have one, because they prefer the controller or just because it says Sony on the box.

It is EXACTLY the same as last gen as PS3 also had a lot of Digital games - maybe not quite so many AAA games bought this way but there is still a library of PS3 games and PS+ digital games that people still have to keep a PS3 to play - how is that any different? It doesn't matter whether you bought more digital or physical games, there is still NO obligation to offer BC - you can KEEP YOUR PS4 TO PLAY THEM!!!!

People won't buy a PS5 for BC if the PS5 is poor/weak and not offering 'great' new games, they will keep their PS4 and maybe buy an Xbox or PC. Its much more important to get the console right for the future, the 'next' 5yrs, Have both feet in the future, not have one foot in the past and one foot in the future. BC doesn't sell consoles - NEW games and performance do.

You chose to buy digital and you bought them for PS4 - not for PS5, PS6, PS7 etc but for PS4 - exactly the same as I did with my physical purchases. I still have a PS4 to play my PS4 games on and will keep a PS4 to play my PS4 games on regardless - whether that's my physical games or the few digital games I own.

Brand loyalty comes from providing the quality you expect consistently. If you liked Nintendo's games, you would buy the next console to play the new Nintendo games and keep your old Nintendo to continue playing the old Nintendo games. Whether they were downloaded, on cartridge or on disc, it makes NO difference as you bought the games to play on a certain console. When new consoles came out, it was the line-up, the specs, the games etc and IF Sony do their job right with the PS5, they won't have to rely on cheap tactics to get you to buy, you will want to buy because its the 'best' console on the market with the best new games, if not people will keep their PS4's and buy MS anyway. If Sony don't add BC in any capacity, you are NOT losing the ability to play any of your games at all because you can play them on the console you have been playing them on for years! Sony hasn't relied on BC and has amassed a lot of Brand Loyalty for the PS4 because of the NEW games and the quality of the PS4 over the XB1 and its games. BC hasn't helped close the gap as all those that deserted last gen rush out to buy an Xbox One to play their old 360 library - the few that the XB1 offers anyway.

At best BC may sell a few more consoles at launch because that gives a bigger library when their is so few new games available but has no proof that it sells consoles at all. You may decide to go to MS because MS has some BC but maybe more may buy PS5 because its offering the best line-up of games and best hardware too. They also offer Subscription services like PS+/PSNow that people may want to keep so will buy a PS5 because they don't have to buy Gold as well and can keep playing all their PS+ games on their PS4 - don't need BC to force people to stick with Sony regardless....

Last gen launched without BC on.l both consoles and ms launched BC on Xbox one only after two or three years and at that point it was already too late, many new games were released etc. Still, when some games launched on BC they were very popular, just look at red dead redemption and black ops 2..they even charted Amazon! Also, last gen it was 70% physical 30% digital, now it's reversed. Therefore, these two situations are not comparable.